Condo Association Management Blog

If you use Roberts Rules of Proicedure as most board do the agenda can include any item the majority of the atendees wish tio include. It is normal for the OPresident or the board to propose an agenda but it must be approved by a majority vote of the assembly (attendees) since a board meeting isd a deliberative assembly items can be added or subtracted or modified as the majority wishes.

Proper??? You must be new to HOAs. 
 
HOAs conduct themselves however the tyrants in charge want to conduct themselves. 
 
There is NO proper here. There is only manupulation and dishonesty.  
 
They really DO NOT want you at their meetings anyway.

Will let you know. We asked for a couple very simple items to be added to our Agenda tonight. Can't wait to hear the Presidents excuses for not adding them. We all agree to see what she says and then will meet after the meeting to figure out how to go onward.

Mike rfead yopur state HOA law and then apply the pressure to the board to obey the law. Once they note you are serious and that they could face state penalties-regardless of the home harmle3ss clause in your bylaws-they modify their behavior.

Hi Charles, 
 
I just reviewed MO and still don't see what you are talking about. I see where they can be held for punitive damages but isn't that in court - versus small claims. We are just trying to get the work done so don't have any "damages" that I can ascertain as financial damages. Maybe you see this in a better way than I do. This is all about water damage.  
 
Thanks.

With touchy issues re spending of condo $ and HOA actions, there are bound to be power and protocol struggles. But when scheduling of an outside guest is involved, perhaps a positive, direct approach to the president would work as this really is a matter of courtesy to the guest. Inviting a police officer for a specific time and honoring that time is a courtesy to the officer who can then return to street duties or police work more quickly. Speaking/answering residents' questions is a good use of police resources; waiting around is not.

Please....state law...what a joke. 
 
I went to my legislator and told him about my HOA (persecution of my 91 year old neighbor, ouster of our only black resident (after fines of aprox $20K), harassment and fine of someone foolish enough to build a nicer home next to the HOA pres) and on and on. Changing the governing documents without notice nevermind approval.... 
 
Anyway, we drafted some legislation, folks from all over the state came to testify....and.... 
 
NOTHING. 
 
Turns out the Committee on Housing takes money, dinners, travel from the legislative action committee of the Community Associations Institute. 
 
These are lawyers who represent HOAs and Condos. 
 
They just sat through all the horror stories with this stupid obtuse "I don't get it" look on their faces. 
 
It is almost funny in an epic, people are patheticly hopeless kind of way.  
 

Oh..the best part. I went to the law library to see maybe if salvation lieth within one of those books. 
 
3 new tomes had just been published and stocked on Condo and HOA law....written by the same group of intensly unethical lawyers in my state (look up MEEB, condo law, Massachusetts) 
 
These scum are actualy WRITING THE LAW here! 
 
I feel like I fell into some Alice in Wonderland nightmare where the Constitution is laughed at and spit upon when you drive up to your own home. 
 
And in the birth place of democracy to boot. 
 
Why am I laughing? It is just to $%^&* funny!

Just got done with our Board Meeting. As my husband said the first thirty minutes were surreal.  
 
The Board President was quite surprised to see so many people attend. The Board's behavior was beyond perfect. Sweet and welcoming. Until the President flipped and screamed she had to take control of the meeting.  
 
I asked if we could put the water issue on the November Agenda so I didn't have to write the world requesting it - the President said she'd take it under advisement, but she didn't have to add it the Agenda. 
 
Guess what. The President just told us we pay nothing for our attorney bills - he doesn't charge the Board for anything. He was in the Attorney General's office. Now you tell me there isn't some massive conflict of interest there.  
 
It's a joke. The whole thing. But what comes around goes around. We are the only ones that have a dry locker - we stood up for ourselves.  
 

If, as most Bioard sdo, use Roberts Rules to manage their meetings you have the right to add any item the majority of the assembly by majority voter approves.If your board does not use Roberts then demand to know what rules they do follow and as proof ask for the minutes of the meeting at which those rules were ado[ted. Some unit owner claiming to remember such action as proof is unacceptanle Minutes are tyhe official record and that adoption must be recorded therein to be legal.

Reading so many negative comments about BODs and knowing just how hard it is to run an HOA makes me incredibly sad. I cannot comment to some of the abuses that have been complained of and am sure that many have merit, but many are equally false. We cannot get enough members at our meetings. We've tried and tried to entice people to come. We want a community atmosphere, coupled with community respect for each other, which can only be fostered in that type of gathering. But even when we sent out invites and then personally invited and reminded people, we had 3 people show up in addition to the BOD. There seemed to be no time for people to attend, but they sure have time to write complaints! Take ownership, people. You elected your board. If they are as dishonest as you say, why do you keep doing it?  
 
Also, we don't pay our lawyers, not for liens, etc., as that is charged back to homeowners, as bylaws allow for collection of their unpaid dues. 
 
It would be hubris on my part to think that we have the only honest BOD in the country, and I'm sure that many homeowners would say otherwise, looking at it from their uninformed perspective, but do not forget that "a house divided against itself cannot stand," as Jesus himself noted. 
 
I regret that my take on all of this is the same pass-the-buck attitude that's been prevelant since the 60s and growing worse all the time.  
 
As for the agenda, we take the lead from our property manager who organizes us, but we have had modifications to accommodate individuals who had agreed to speak at meetings. I'm sure it's not impossible. 
 
For the rest of you, I am truly sorry for your pitiful state and hope you can work together towards a solution beneficial to all, without casting stones while wearing a blindfold.

Jesus Charles, you really don't get it. 
 
You can "demand" all you want, but you will just get blown off. 
 
If you become a real pain, they will find some "violation" you are responsible for. 
 
These HOAs are run exactly on the same line as some tin pot tyranny you find anywhere there is no: 
 
 
 
Opposition party 
 
Free press 
 
Independant judiciary 
 
Seperation of powers scheme 
 
 
 
That folks submit to these mini governements without those things is just amazning. 
 
 
 
Are we really that ignorant about what "real" democracy is? 
 

Sandi, 
 
People don't come to meetings because they know how manipulative and wacky they are. 
 
But I bet they used to come. Every HOA I know had 80-90% turnout at the meetings in the beginning. 
 
In my HOA nobody shows anymore. I don't go because the LAST thing I want the board to have is a quarom... 
 
I have mailed letters to all residents explaining how HOAs are so fundementaly different from real democracy (with mandatory properties listed in previous posts) 
 
that they can't be called democracys at all. They are classis tyrannys. 
 
The best you can say if you run one of these is that you will be a benevolent tyrant. 
 
In fact, HOAs (and having to belong to one just because you bought a house) insult every American who ever gave his life preserving and defending the Constitution. 
 
It is sickening. 
 

I simply luv these comments.......And I thought I was the only one who feels this way. 
 
I see many other associations are just as corrupt as the one we just got rid of. Ya all made my day! 
 
And I am still smiling!!!!!!

Sandi,  
 
You are so right and I wish our owners would come. No one wants to listen to the President in our case. She yells and screams and cuts you off. Intimidation is her way to control. You should see what she does to her grandkids she babysits. Very sad.  
 
Last night we talked about landscaping for a couple mintues - last month an owner came with a squirrel issue - jumping from the tree branches to her deck. The President had someone look at the roof to check to see if the squirrels are eating the shingles. She was very proud to tell us last night. Some how there is a major disconnect in her mind. Squirrels don't eat shingles but they do get into the attic and eat insulation.  
 
It was like when one of the lockers was flooded and because the water was clear we don't need to worry about.  
 
Doesn't make sense to me.  
 
I used the Roberts Rules of Order at a special meeting last year and it was a nightmare. Only two other people know them and they don't come to meetings.  
 
We can't vote on anything at a Board meeting period. We can't vote to have the Roberts Rules of Orders be the manner in which we run the meeting. We aren't allowed to vote unless she says we are - and the Treasurer backs her up.  
 
This President can tell anyone what she wants because these people here are so uniformed. We live one block off of 1 million dollar plus homes but are about 50 feet from the "line". So it puts us in a slightly lower price point. This was one of the first condos built in the area about 20 yeas ago and we have some people who bought in when it cost nothing. So we have a huge disparity in income here.  
 
Some have no investment and others have well over 500,000+ because we have come in and gutted the places due to the fabulous location. A number have paid full cash. Only to learn that this is no way to live and are shocked at the unfriendliness that this Board has created. What's the secret is my real question to the Board.  
 
To argue over the cost of a couple bushes last night - that "they probably aren't going to be in the budget next year" - maybe 100.00"- is crazy to most of us. I'd just assume take a 100 of my own and fill in the major holes we now have where dead bushes haven't been replaced - but am sure they'd pull them up since I wasn't approved to do that.  
 
The attorney the Board hired worked at the Attorney Generals office until recently. He is not charging our board anything. My read - he's waiting for one of us to file a suit against the Board and then he'll make a fortune. He's going to be waiting a long time.  
 
He is about the 5th attorney the Board has used - they finally found someone they "think" they are controlling" I guess. The others all got paid. The Board had another attorney read thru and update our by-laws and declaration - for a one page final update we spent about 10,000 - the main thing that was changed is that the garden in the back is now a common area or something like that. Then we spent thousands more at the Boards "pleasure" when they weren't sure of how to interpret something in them. We paid as an association - out of our monthly dues. And no one argued about it. 
 
Our bylaws and declaration are standard, boiler plate. There are no "tricky" things in them. I guess people don't care. As we have this special endorsement on our master policy re the Board members being considered "employees" - which holds them liable for certain acts - even thought they are indemnified - i wouldn't be on the Board at all now. A hundred to one this Board has no clue it's there. But it took me almost 8 weeks to even get a copy of the policy and then they didn't give me the declaration page. There is a reason when the Board changed insurance companies - that this was put in, I just don't know what it was or what someone did to have had this endorsement added.  
 
It is so very sad that the people here don't come to the meetings, vote on what is put in front of them, and then wonder why this happened to them. 
 
"It takes a village" and we don't have it here. And we only have 21 people.  
 
 

Individuals can rant all they want..but it is easy to dismiss their complaints as just a "disgruntled" homeowners. 
 
 
 
How about when an independant state agency does it? 
 
 
 
 
 
Read what the director of Dept of Community Affairs in New Jersey said about HOAs(and quoted by the AARP!) 
 
 
 
Overwhelmingly ... the frustrations posed by the duplicative complainants or by the complainants’ misunderstandings are dwarfed by the pictures they reveal of the undemocratic life faced by owners in many associations. Letters routinely express a frustration and outrage easily explainable by the inability to secure the attention of boards or property managers, to acknowledge no less address their complaints. Perhaps most alarming is the revelation that boards, or board presidents desirous of acting contrary to law, their governing documents or to fundamental democratic principles, are unstoppable without extreme owner effort and often costly litigation.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Problems presented by complainants run the gamut from the frivolous (flower restrictions and lawn watering), to the tragically cruel (denial of a medically necessary air conditioner or mechanical window devices for the handicapped),[2] to the bizarre (president having all dog owners walk dogs on one owner’s property, air conditioners approved only for use from September to March. Curiously, with rare exceptions, when the State has notified boards of minimal association legal obligation to owners, they dispute compliance. In a disturbing number of instances, those owners with board positions use their influence to punish other owners with whom they disagree. The complete absence of even minimally required standards, training or even orientations for those sitting on boards and the lack of independent oversight is readily apparent in the way boards exercise control.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
...[C]omplaints have disclosed the following acts committed by incumbent boards: leaving opponents’ names off the ballots (printed up by the board) by “mistake”; citing some trivial “violation” against opponents to make them ineligible to run; losing nominating petitions; counting ballots in secret -- either by the board or their spouses or someone in its employ -- such as the property manager deciding to appoint additional board members to avoid the bother of elections; soliciting proxies under the guise of absentee ballots; holding elections open until the board obtains the necessary votes to pass a desired action; declaring campaign literature by their opponents to be littering; using association newsletters to aggrandize their “accomplishments” but forbidding contrary opinions by owners ...; routinely refusing to release owner lists to candidates-despite the board mailing owners (at association expense) their positions (it has become routine for the State to refer candidates to the municipal tax office to obtain the names of their fellow association owners); rejecting candidate platforms or editing them to conform to the board’s idea of fair comment which includes eliminating any criticism at the board.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
[Pa237-38]  
 
 
 
The Hannaman Report is a scathing indictment of the status quo system of community association regulation in New Jersey. The Report might be easy to dismiss if the author were a homeowner-rights advocate or interest group. In that event, it would be all too easy to characterize the Report as biased or untrustworthy. But, in light of the fact that the Report instead constitutes a published statement of the State of New Jersey’s “association regulator” entrusted with oversight of community associations in this State, the Report obviously assumes heightened significance and carries considerable weight.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Excellent article. But the bottom line still is - without outright suing the Boards - who are indemnified in most instances to the hilt - owners are going to have to be more involved and "believe" they have rights. Right now, it seems the owners don't have the confidence in their own beliefs to stand up for themselves.  
 
Just read the book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by P. Evans. It's our Board to the hilt. It also explains how to deal with abusive people. A very, very good read. About 150 pages filled with ways to handle people that are abusive to you and how to not be afraid of abusive people. I used what I learned last night. It actually worked quite well. But you have to read the full book, not skip around.  
 

Sorry, just doesn't work. 
 
People know HOA meetings and especialy elections are rigged. 
 
 
 
We WiLL NOT SHOW up to meetings and waste our time!

A very wort6h while read!!

Boards are idemnified unless trheir actions violate state law. Wake up and force the issue. If you think your election is rigged and you do nothing about the situation then I can say you are a part of the problem.

With all due respect, it is you who needs to 'wake up'. 
 
To "take on" the board you must pony up minimum $20K dollars. Call any lawyer you want and confirm this. 
 
This is why most folks just stay home, keep their heads low and hope that they don't become the next target. 
 

In fact, the Twin Rivers case in New Jerset is where the Dept of Com Affairs info came from. 
 
 
 
Twin Rivers HOA spent over $1million dollars in legal fees!!! to prevent anyone from running for the board having access to the newsletter or to post political signs (littering they called it)! 
 
 
 
$1million! 
 
 
 
You have to be a fool to attempt to keep up with that. 
 
 
 
But there are plenty of fools who loose their homes fighting for what is right. 
 
 
 
The real sad thing is....THIS IS JUST WHAT THE ASSOCIATION ATTORNEY WANTS YOU TO DO! 
 
 
 
This is fastest why to transfer the equity in your home into their pockets, which is all they are really about anyway!