Condo Association Management Blog

Wow, if they voted on this, it needs to be in the minutes I believe. Seems to me that in reality and by rules, regs, laws, etc. very little must be included in the minutes.  
 
That's why where I live we never know what is "really" going on. It's all done behind the scenes.  
 
Someone here is now challenging the last two board elections and all the decisions made by this Board - two of the same people are still on the Board.  
 
We are "awaiting" the minutes of the last meeting where a number of us showed up unexpectedly. The Board said some things that are totally not true and we are wondering how they will handle it in the minutes, if at all.

You are entitled to the Board minutes. How the decks are handled my be a matter of how the bylaws and declarations are set up for your association, but those will be on file with the County Clerk's office. Where I live you can download for free off the County website, so it would behoove you to check into it. 
 
The board is responsible to the homeowners and answerable to them for their actions and inactions; but things are never as simple as they may seem to those who are not privy to the meetings.  
 
Again, if you are denied minutes, you should be able to demand them legally, but I'd recommend checking your HOA regs to see what they Association is liable to repair and what belongs to the homeowner themselves. Even though the responsible person may be known, if the property is truly considered common (whether limited or not) the HOA may be responsible for the repair: i.e., teenagers vandalizing plants in limited common area will be replaced by HOA (the plants, that is, not the teenagers. I'd rather not replace the teenagers!)

I am so happy to hear this issue being raised. At our board meetings, no actions are taken by the board. All actions are taken behind the scenes and no records are made of those decisions. No information is shared with the members in the minutes or any place else and we have a professional manager. The word professional is used loosely.  
 
 
 
I was thinking about this issue today. I thought of drafting a letter to the local real estate companies telling their agents that any of their buyers who are contemplating buying a unit should look carefully at the minutes and notice that no financial information is in those minutes. Also, I was thinking of pointing out that the bylaws require that the board meet every month. And, the board is not doing that. Also, that the information in what we call the resale agreement often leaves out amendments to the declaration and that the financial statements in the resale agreement are done using the cash accounting method.  
 
 
 
Will this hurt our community, well if the board doesn't clean up its act then it will have problems. But if the board wants to keep the price of the units up then it may be forced to address the issue. It should be including the information of their actions in the minutes. If a contract is signed then this should be noted in the minutes. If repair work is to be authorized then it should be noted in the minutes. This is never done.

To the original poster: 
 
 
 
What State are you located in and is the association professionally managed?

I am amazed at the questions posted here. People do not bother to read their governing documents or state laws, and they hardly ever disclose in which state they are or, whether they are self-managed or professionally managed. It makes a big difference. Minutes should show what it is done not what was said. And, as far as badmouthing your own community with realtors in your area, the poster's attitude is questionable. Do these posters ever attend board meetings and volunteer to be in a committee? do they ever raise their legitimate concerns directly to their boards? do they ever send a certified letter to the President asking for an explanation or, clarification ?? This is not supposed to be a gossip forum.

You are absolutely entitled to a copy of the board meeting minutes. You are also entitled to attend the board meetings (at least in the state of Florida). The board has to post a 48 hour notice of their intent to meet. 
 
We have the same problem in this condo. I just had a screaming match with our president. No matter what problem we have, if we go to him we get "kiss my ass" and the door slammed. I just screamed through his door that this is a business and we are all equal owners, and he has NO right to withhold any information from us. What did I hear back? "kiss my ass, I dont have to deal with you" 
 
I detest condo living. As soon as I sell my other condo I'm getting a house on my own land with no HOA and then I'll get a big flag that says KISS MY ASS and put it on the front lawn like Iwo Jima!

Katerina, 
 
 
 
Can't help but wonder why you would want a big flag on your front lawn that says "Kiss My Ass".

Are you being facetious Mary? 
 
 
:)

Thanks to all for taking the time to respond to my inquiry. Mr. Begley, Indiana is my state and we are not professionally managed.

I think Susana has some good comments/questions. I cannot speak for others but her questions certainly struck a nerve with me so I have some answers to Susana's comments/questions. 
 
Her comments in quotes followed by my response: "People do not bother to read their governing documents or state laws" 
 
I have read, re-read, and studied my association legal documents. I have read, re-read, and studied Condo law in the State of N.H. where my condo is located.  
 
"Do these posters ever attend board meetings and volunteer to be in a committee?" I have asked for past meetings (to request the minutes) and the board has not responded to that. Regarding attending upcoming board meetings they have just now responded that it may be possible under certain circumstances if I have some issue that they deem they want to hear (of course I feel I should be given notice and allowed to observe any meeting I desire). I have spent a good amount of time trying to work with the board advising of issues and developing a spreadsheet that could have helped solve an important owner window equity issue. I just contacted them with my concerns about painting/staining in the Mtns of N.H. this time of year. They responded once again that they will not respond to my concerns/issues. Right on the paint/stain container the manufacturer says not to apply if temperatures are forecasted to drop below 35 degrees with 48 hour of application. Since they refuse to reply I will likely put it on my Website for other owners to see, complete with a picture of the manufacturer requirements and the actual 7 day forcast grahic showing 6 out of 7 days where temps were expected to be below manufacturers requirements, dropping as low as 24 degrees. Do I feel bad about posting it? Yes, but I gave them a chance to at least respond and I am fed up with them and the way they do business. And the Website is the only thing that has produced any real results.  
 
"Do they ever raise their legitimate concerns directly to their boards?" Yes, I have in meetings (where I have been blocked from speaking and when allowed to speak they have refused to answer questions), emails, conference calls, and now via the Internet because nothing else worked. Getting info out on the Internet got some attention from the board and got them to at least to respond to a couple of things and say they will begin to follow some of the bylaws and state laws after a year of trying to work with them and then fighting with them.  
 
 
 
"Do they ever send a certified letter to the President asking for an explanation or, clarification ??" Yes, I have sent a certified letter that my board president never accepted delivery for (the property manager did reportedly end up giving him a copy).  
 
"This is not supposed to be a gossip forum." I agree but everyone has to start somewhere with their knowledge. Also, this forum is set up for quick little statements. It does not even paragraph break very conveniently. I think people are here for help and confused and frustrated by boards that often do not act ethically or have that appearance because of the way they are operating. Now it is true some who post here may not have much recourse. Sometimes that is because condo laws are often pretty sparse and boards can operate around the margins of the law. For example, Indiana. I just did a quick check of the condo law statutes on the Web and did not see a specific requirement regarding board meeting minutes though it was a quick look. That does not mean there should not be a law or that it should not be in his condo association documents. It absolutely should, business should be done in the open. I believe all boards should operate in the open and follow their fiduciary responsibilities (which I believe most states require that they do). If they did there would be a lot less problems and fewer people would share the sentiment "I will never buy a condo again". I wish someone had let my Realtor know how my board operates before I bought into my association. It might have saved me a great deal of aggravation. The law and association legal documents are a contract between the association and an owner and no board should not thumb their noses at their responsibility to uphold their end of the contract. 
 
One last quick thought question. Term limits. My board president has been on the board for about 17 years. I have not found anything in reading my laws and legal documents regarding term limits. Does anyone else reading this have term limits in your state laws/legal documents? 
 
Sorry for the length. The questions/comments posed just struck a nerve with my situation and the countless hours I have spent on issues. I also feel some responsibility to share what I have learned. It may help others and me if I am ever foolish enough to buy another condo.

Rick, your post illustrates that in somes cases no amount of wisdom, decency , or expertize can break the cycle of ineptitude and big egos. Many condo boards are no different than our Congress. It is all about politics and cutting deals and alliances. I know it is hard to comprehend but trust me, that is the way it is more often than not. I have been there, done that. The only way to break the wall is to get your community involved and/or change tactics. To befriend board members may open a window of opportunity so that you can get on the board either through elections or appointment. Challenging the board or, confronting them head on will not bring the results you expect. You have to outsmart the fox or, be prepared to spend money in attorneys to bring your case to a Judge. And, if the legal system is the only option left on the table then you better have a solid case pursuant to your governing documents and state laws.

Katerina, if you are in Florida you should get familiar with Florida Statute 718, which governs FL Condo Associations. Go to the state site and look it up. It is a 120 page legal document. Condo owners in FL have quite a few resources but you must educate yourself, and certainly not get verbal with your President. He is right. He does not have to deal with unit owners at his home, let alone get into a "screaming match" with you. The business of the association should be handled at board meetings. Any concerns or grievances should be discussed with your manager. If manager is not helpful then you must write to your association and send letter via certified mail. Failure to respond within the time frame of the Law gives the owner cause to file a complaint with the state. As I said, you need to become educated in these matters and be patient with the system that we have in place in FL.

One point I left our is about realtors. I don't know in which state you all live but I can tell all of you that in FL real estate professionals are required to conduct themselves in the outmost professional and ethical manner or, risk receiving sanctions from the real estate commission. Community association management is also a regulated profession by Statute.  
 
 
 
Bottom line, if you want change in your condo association, your state laws, etc. you have to get involved, you have to become educated in these matters, and be willing to fight for a cause not just conveniently complain and make allegations behind a keyboard. Many threads and topics on this forum are perfectly legitimate but there are others that are quite frankly, juvenile. You cannot afford the luxury to make your case personal or, emotionally charged. You loose all credibility.

Susana, 
 
 
 
Post more! 
 
 
 
Mark

Can someone tell me in Florida are all condo owners allowed to every board meeting? Even if they are held every couple of weeks?

Joy, of course but by Statute you can only talk about items on the agenda for a few minutes. Most boards do not watch the clock though. If you are in Florida you must get educated. We are one of a few highly regulated states when it comes to associations. FL Statute 718 governs condo associations in FL. You can look up this extensive legal document on the state website. In addition, you have your own governing documents for your community. You really must take the time to get familiar with these matters.

Thanks Susana my governing documents weren't so clear.

That is because the governing documents do not address everything. They are not supposed to. The FL Legislature has been adding provisions to the Statutes for past 10 years, every year, particularly FS 718.

Susana, In the past your comments to my questions have been appreciated and respected. I have a question that needs clarification. These meetings are about to take place within the next ten days. 
 
First: We are a Condo Association located in Florida. 
 
Second: I am very involved, I volunteer & attend meetings. I have given many many hours of my time to this association.  
 
Third: We are now dealing with a newly "appointed" President. She has been on the Board in years past (Has resigned twice after getting what she wanted) and has done some unethical things. Without getting into gory details on this blog, Something has come to my attention and has been shared with me by a board member who truly is the only current board member who is not self dealing and advocates for the homeowners. She is concerned about the liability of what is about to transpire, however the other board members have pretty much kept her out of the loop on issues because a lot of what the board has done recently she has been against due to the boards attitude being "what's good for them" and not the community as a whole. With that being said, The President who has been in office since August of this year is now having a "planning meeting" to take place before the official board meeting. Topic of discussion will be changing some Rules & Regs, as well as maintenance and repair issues. She states,(the President) This meeting is legal according to our By-laws as long as we take notes and record it in the minutes book. 
 
This is so untrue, No where in our Doc's or By-laws does it state this! I am aware that a board may have a closed meeting when an attorney is present and they are discussing litigation matters. That minutes must be taken and filed with the records. This President is known to twist and turn and interpet our By-laws to suit her. She may take one sentence out of a entire paragraph and use it for her benefit.  
 
She has also stated there will be a "Budget Workshop" Board members only! A quorum will be present. 
 
It is my understanding of FAC, 617, Rules of Roberts (which our association is suppose to follow as is stated in our By-laws that Call it whatever you want, Anytime a quorum of the Board is present discussing association business it is a offical board meeting. Thus it should be posted & open to homeowners. The only exception to this would be executive session with attny present where homeowners are not invited. However it should still be posted and minutes taken.  
 
I think the "planning meeting" and "workshop" are positive actions, however the way this President is going about it is secretive, unethical, and I believe she is breaking the law. 
 
Your opinion and advice is appreciated. Thank you

Tami, without getting too technical I can assure you that 2 Directors can ask your President to resign. As far as board workshops, it is not unusual or illegal, however, if you know there will be a quorum of the board, you should announce as a board meeting according to FS 718 guidelines. You do not mention how many Directors you must have as per your Bylaws. I think you are overreacting a bit. Robert Rules can be used at the discretion of the board even if it is your governing documents.

Sorry, We are a board of 5 quorum would be 3. My main concern here is "Transparency" Our association is so dysfuntional due to a board controlled by mainly 4 bm's an their ego's. With the exception of one board member the rest are all friends and excuse the expression, "Thick as Thieves" sadly. For two of them to remove her from office is not in the cards since they are friends. 4 of them back eachother up on everything. Leaving the one member out in the cold. Unfortunately we have a community that doesn't get involved, unless it involves their wallet and are not educated when it comes to the Doc's and FLA Statutes. However, the board doesn't tell the membership anything until after the fact. I might add, most of the board was appointed not elected. The 5th member that is in the cold, was our President, they removed her from office, appointed who they wanted on the board so now they have full control and she is out-voted on many issues. This was their plan from the beginning so they could control and they act in secrecy and keep members in the dark. I just feel that why the secrecy? If you want a "planning meeting" or workshop" so be it, but why not post it and include the homeowners. After all doesn't the board work for the community? What are they afraid of? 
 
The communities attitude is Why bother, why get involved? The board does what they want anyway regardless. Our elections are 7 months away, alot of damage can and will be done in that amount of time but you reap what you sow. Maybe now they will open their eyes and get involved. It's discouraging to those who want to be involved and look at the community as a whole and not what's good for me and my friends! I believe the Budget is a serious enough issue since it is the shareholders money and they may have some valuable imput on items of concern. Why exclude them? 
 
But back to the point. If a quorum (3) is present should these meetings, workshops or whatever still be "Noticed"(posted) and can they close it to homeowners? My interpetation of FAC and 718 Is yes, whenever a quorum is present, although some would say "what do your By-laws state" Our By-laws refer to "special meetings" or "emergency meetings" with lawyer present with regard to a closed meeting situation.

This is a direct quote from the email our President just sent me. She is crazy as far as I'm concerned but is so vebally abusive that noone else is willing to take her on. 
 
"Owners are invited to attend board meetings as observers, not discussants. Open discussion by owners will be available at the owners’ meeting in December." She doesn't care what any law says and no one is willing to take her on. And when another Board member covers for her, it is a disaster waiting to happen.  
 
Our December meeting is to vote on the Budget and elect the new Board (which noone will get near if two of these current members want to be on it).  
 
We finally got them to stop serving cocktails at the annual meeting. Thank goodness.  
 
Last month we were owners were allowed to put items on the Agenda. Next month we can't discuss anything.  
 
I think they either lost their D & O or the insurance company dumped us as the Board is now shopping around for "better bids". Right. Wish they'd bid out the Property Manager while they are at it. We are an annuity to her and some of her family.  
 
Am I sarcastic. Yes, I am. We are worn out. I wish the economy was better and we'd be gone. It's hard to watch our biggest asset be dissipated.

WOW, I no longer can distinguish who is who on this thread. Has the original poster dissapeared ??  
 
Tami, I have already said that whenever there is a quorum of the board a meeting no matter the locations should be announce in a conspicous (spelling ?) place least 48 hrs in advance. I would like to recommend to you that you contact the Ombusdman office and/or go to the DBPR website and you will find forms to make a complaint about your board but must keep a cool head. Nobody here on this forum can really help you any further. You know what you have to do and that includes running for a board seat.  
 
 
 
Mary, are you also in FL ?? Purpose of monthly or quarterly board meetings is to take care of association business. In FL for example our Statutes are very clear in that homeowners can only talk about items on the agenda for a few minutes. It is up to the board to allow more time to discuss or debate.

Thanks Susana, you confirmed what I thought all along. That is what I was planning on doing, and yes I am level headed as well as cool! :-) Thanks again for your input. 
 
As far as the "board seat" I have served in that compacity for several years in the past. And I try always to stay involved in ways that allow me to.

Thanks Susana. We are in Missouri. Our Board decides if they want to put an item on the Agenda that we request be discussed. Of course, they can't, but they do. So if they don't like you, it doesn't get on the Agenda. They have meetings all the time without a quorum. However, our issue is that the President makes unilateral decisions and the second Board member covers for her. We have had three other good Board members resign for this reason.  
 
Your info is good - the Boards attorney represents "the Board" only per the President recently. He was in the Attorney Generals office. How do you get a complaint going around that set of facts. And she says he's doing the work for them for free.  
 
I know our Statutes and not for profit info. Doesn't seem to matter to the Board. When they increase one cost, we lose another line item so they can tell us we are in "good shape".  
 
Can you tell me what the DBPR is - maybe we have one in Missouri.  
 
Thanks so much. All your ideas are good ones. If we can't go in to discuss items, we can't get thru to anyone. We know the purpose of the monthly meetings and what our rights are but it ends up with the President out of control and trying to cut everyone off. No rules at our meetings. Very sad.

Here's our Board Presidents response to our request to add items to our November Board Agenda that several owners wanted to talk about. You won't believe it. 
 
She emailed to me a couple minutes ago. And the 2nd sentence is written in red.  
 
"Legal advice received today: The short answer is no, a board meeting does not need to permit "public" discussion." 
 
It's called Control Over. She has to be the final say.  
 
Absurd for a 6.8 million dollar building with only 20 condos.

Mary from Missouri.  
 
You can't just have a few owners ask for an item to be placed on the agenda and not risk being turned down. There has to be a methodology and a percentage of signatures required somewhere whether it is in your governing documents or state laws. if you get personal you loose credibility and respect. You have to build a solid case from the ground up before you can challenge a board. Research is crucial if you want to succeed.