Condo Association Management Blog

You had best hire a good lawyer

What is name and address of the management company

Pay the $4000 sell the property and sue the management company and the association. 
 
Remember the responsible party here is the association. The management company can't record a lien, it's the association that could. Management company simply collects on behalf of the association so the money owed were to the association, not the management company.

I DO_NO_TRUST Management companies. They do what the Board tells them. They are only their to carry out the evil of the Board. I bet you 100% the Board also has their hands in your situation. Good Luck...

Since my last note, the association has reduced the amout owed to $2000., which includes a $171 increase in the assessment for the same time period.

The notices we got from the attorney attempting to collect has so many conflicting numbers. We have documented proof that my mother has paid all of her condo fees since she moved in. Ironically, the collection dates coincide with her accident when she left to go to rehab. We were paying mortgage and fees on time. I totally agree with Jeff and Albert. The assoc. is in it to win it. This unit has quite a few foreclosures so attempting to collect money any way they can seems to be the norm. At this point we are going to foreclosure without a regret in the world. It is a shame the buyer will lose out on a great place because of shoddy record keeping.

Who is foreclosing? A bank or is the Association foreclosing due to alleged non-payment of fees?  
 
If they are wrong, it seems to this me, that you have an interesting case. Won't anyone look at your proofs of payment? Send the Association a certified letter with copies of the ORIGINALS. Do not send originals. Make plenty of copies, you may need them down the road.  
 
Why allow a foreclosure? The must be some equity in your Mom's property.. 
 

Just anothercase of boards gone wild. I think the advice you got to pay, and then sell to sue later could be a very wise course. Boards get away due to bad laws that essentially allows and helps the thief to escape while locking up innocent owners.

It will be the bank foreclosing. There is no equity or family members that can or want to buy it. There is over $100,000 difference in what she owes versus what they sold it for (until the lien came up). My mother can not pay the alleged fees because she does not have it. This is a senior community and I am sure she is not the first. Folks are selling and foreclosing in several units and houses. We went the way of short sale because it seemed feasible. We want to get rid of it and have one less worry for my mom. I am sick of the back and forth. Amounts changing,inaccurate record keeping and not informing her is crazy.

The Association cannot just increase fees without there being some type of notification to your mother.  
 
1st notification would have been the budget -- as that is what maintenance fees are based upon. 
 
If the budget was amended and increased as a result, then there would have been notice of that as well. 
 
If the difference in fees is due to a special assessment, there would have been a notice for that as well. 
 
If you no longer reside in the unit and your mailing address changes, YOU (the owner) are required to give that information to management so they can send these notices to that new address. If you fail to do so, how is the Association going to know and find you? 
 
Managing condos for years you would not believe how many times despite notices mailed, emailed, faxed, posted upon the property, delivered to doors, etc that people still claim they didn't know and continue to pay old amounts. I just had one such case. Despite documenting how many times we sent notices, the owner (who did not provide their mailing address but for whom we had been using their email address) AND sending to the renter via mail, hand deliver, certfied, in addition to posting upon the property claimed that they had no idea maintenance had gone up and did not understand why there was a balance due. It took the Association to file a lien against the unit to get someone's attention. 
 
Another Association we manage, a gentleman quit paying the association and despite notifying him, his family (via mail, email, certified letter, personal delivery, etc) he skipped payments. After a year the daughter calls and says my father doesn't understand why he owes can you please send him a statement. Obviously I advised her I had been sending statements not only to him, but to her as well. You know what she said? Oh, well I belived my father instead of the statement and deleted it. Can you send it again? Now they are trying to get out of paying attorneys fees, late fees and interest, with a new version that XYZ was sick, can't you give us a break, etc. They hadn't paid for over a year or made contact.  
 
What am I getting at here? The Management and the Board can only do so much. They can't bounty hunt you down to deliver statements or notices -- nor should they have to. 
 
With that said, you should be able to ask for a copy of the unit's ledger for the time period in question. However, it is not up to management or the Board to explain it to you. Our policy is to explain it twice. We do this only twice because if we didn't, there would always be people claiming they don't understand no matter how many times you explain a statement / ledger. 
 
If a unit alleges a discrepancy, we advise them to send a copy of the front and back of any checks they feel were not applied and match those to payments applied. When we record payments we record the check numbers and keep a scanned copy of all checks making up the deposit in the bank binder with the deposit. 
 
If there really are discrepancies they should be easy to locate.

Joyce, I hate to keep harping on this but my mother got one letter stating she owed condo fees. When she left, they were given her new address and we did receive her mail. We asked over & over if it was for an assessment she may have missed. The letter we got said no. It was for 2 months. We have proof that she has paid all fees. I will not go to the bank and pay for copies of over 50 checks to show proof. Anyone living in a community that requires fees needs to keep all records so that a charge of nonpayment is not brought up. I am sick of the amounts owed keep changing.

Perhaps the letter you received was the last letter and your mother received others which you were unaware of? 
 
I don't understand why you feel you would have to get copies of all 50 checks? You would only need copies of the ones which you allege are not accounted for on the ledger. Certainly your mother kept a check book ledger, or received statements (which would be easy enough to reference for the maitenance amount and check number every month) and then cross reference those check numbers with the unit ledger????? 
 
Either way, even if you did pay for all 50 check copies unnecessarily, wouldn't that still be cheaper than the $2000 you're going to pay? 
 
If you're not willing to help yourself, why ask for advice?

In regards to your statement 
 
"Anyone living in a community that requires fees needs to keep all records so that a charge of nonpayment is not brought up." 
 
Yes, they do and that is the owner's responsibility. 
 
It is obvious the condo association is able to explain why they are owed, now it is your responsibility to prove otherwise. 
 
An Association cannot read your mind -- they do not know what "other" checks may have been written and it would be practically impossible for the Association to go back through even a year's records to try and figure out what could possibly be missing without copies of the checks from you. They don't have access to your mother's personal financials. If checks were not applied, YOU need to locate it and bring it to their attention.

I have even had a situation where an individual kept stating they put maintenance payments in the condo box, but they were never there. Only after placing a survellience camera in the area did we find out the person was placing their maintenance payment in an envelope marked only (mantimento XYZ) into the outgoing mailbox which the postal carrier only has access to. As you can imagine, they just grab the mail and stuff it in their mailbag..so it was probably getting to the mail facility and being processed as unrouteable mail.  
 
PS, this person lived in the building for years but sometimes apparently started placing their maintenance in the wrong box.

It looks to me as if Sylvia is shooting herself in the foot if she allows the unit to go into foreclosure instead of trying to settle the mess. The wisest thing do would be to get a lawyer to represent her mother's interests. if she doesn't want to get a lawyer she should pay what the board and management company says her mother owes and sue the board and management company afterwards. However this would also require a lawyer. Itvlooks as if Sylvia and her mother stand to lose a fair amountvof money in allowing a foreclosure. Perhaps they can afford to be so cavalier about money, but I wouldn't be. If what Sylvia states here is all true she is allowing the board and management company to rip her mother off. If for no other reason I would not allow that to happen without a fight. If she does that she is making it harder for everyone else in her position, many of whom wouldn't be able to afford the loss. I can see that she's frustrated and angry but that is no reason to walk away from the situation.

As you can imagine, they just grab the mail and stuff it in their mailbag..so it was probably getting to the mail facility and being processed as unrouteable mail.

I am reading and rereading everything written so I do take advice. The assoc. won't give me anything other than a letter saying $XXX is due. No explaination for when. I am sure they have records if they made this claim. My mom kept great records. All I want is the months she missed. For each month she did not pay, they attached an assessment fee double the condo fee. That is why she owes thousands of dollars. 
 
 
 
The reason for the short sale is because my mother is living in a facility that is not free. In this current market, she could not sale her condo because the market value is thousands less than what she owed. She could no longer afford both places. She can not afford to pay the assoc.thousands of $$. I got an email this evening where the assoc. and management has reduced what is owed by quite a bit. MMM...go figure. All of this payment due info went to the title company. Not my agent or me. 
 
 
 
When you do a short sale, you stop paying your mortgage. Because we were not informed about payment due until closing day, we now are getting letters about her condo going into foreclosure. That is the reason foreclosure was mentioned. Also, my agent asked me what is a good day for closing. Bottom line, the folks want the buyer to get the condo. They are working this out. I stand firm on not paying if I am not provided documentation saying what I owe. Every single condo fee was paid by her and all checks were cashed since the day she moved in. I will let you guys know the outcome. And yes, thank you guys for the advice.

I just read the comments written by Joyce who manages condos but I am wondering why you didn't visit the condo when you were on site and possibly explain this to the owners of the condo unless you don't visit the sites.  
 
I have the most corrupt management company and condo lawyer. I truly believe the management company talked a few condo board members into allowing them to replace items that didn't need to be replaced and profit from the job using some left overs the management company had from other jobs. The PM is married to the owner of the management company. I know for a fact the amount the contractor charged for a service and the amount the management company charged us for that service was $17,500 more. This is very difficult to believe but the contractor didn't realize that he was informing us of an amount that the management company was going to inflate or he would not have revealed this to us. Beside inflating the bill for the service, the horrible PM put a different color roof on our condos so they probably got the roofing material free also.  
 
I feel like our management company acts as the wholesale or middle man and sells everything to us at retail. You can't believe what we paid for snow removal. I am in the process of moving and the lawyer had a lien on my condo which he never followed through with so I have to write and have him vacate the lien. I refused to pay for the $200 skylights that I didn't believe they had a right to replace especially since the skylights were not a part of the common elements and they replaced them to profit only because the contactor gave them such a good price for installation. All of my skylights are defective and they would not even put in an insurance claim. I am being punished because I know they are corrupt.  
 
Please read this Joyce. Recently, the board made up a resolution, that the lawyer and management company probably recommended, so that they can continue to make money off the people who live in our condos. The resolution states that when the roof is replaced on any of the buildings, the condo owner has to pay for new skylights or else, according to this new resolution, the contractor will remove the old skylights and cover the skylight holes with roofing material. This job of replacing the skylights in 4 condos where I live is what brought in the extra $17,500 for those crooks involved. The management company we have has terrible feedback so they have done this before to others as it can work if the PM is married to the owner which they keep a secret.  
 
Joyce, have you ever hear of a lawyer making up a resolution which allows the board to steal skylights and cover the skylight holes with roofing material? The poor condo owners didn't buy condos with skylight holes covered with roofing material so what the heck kind of lawyer is this that we have. I know he lies but is doing what this resolutions states even legal since the lawyer is such a crook I wouldn't put anything past him if he could profit from it. By the way does it do any good to report a lawyer to the state for lying? Our lawyer lies so much and there are some people who believe lawyers do not lie which is causing me a problem having some not too smart condo owners to realize what is happening here.  
 
I would be very interested in what you think of the resolution. As far as I know the board made this resolution up themself without a vote from anyone and honestly, the board would have no idea about doing this without advise from the management company and lawyer. If you work or own a management company and you are honest, I can understand you not believing this but it is true. Please do not think I must not have misunderstood because I can understand you thinking that but I didn't misunderstand at all and I know this is a crazy resolution they made up and passed.  
 
Please write to me about this if you read it Joyce. Thanks

I stood firm that my mother will not pay any fees unless I get the proper documentation. By that I meant giving me the months she may have missed (ledger not given), explaination of huge assessment fees for alleged missed payments(not given). Needless to say, we are going to closing next week and we bring no money to the table. I am glad this nightmare is over. Owners can be late or have not paid a fee, but the association is not off the hook by just asking for a fee without giving the owner a clear record of why this claim was made. She could be making these payments every other year because the "Association/Management" claims she owes them. Who is watching you guys????

Chilly my answers are below: 
Your question: I just read the comments written by Joyce who manages condos but I am wondering why you didn't visit the condo when you were on site and possibly explain this to the owners of the condo unless you don't visit the sites.  
Answer: The sites I was referring to are part time management due to size. So they contract for a certain amount of hours per week, and those hours are spent meeting vendors, handling projects, picking up mail, delivering notices, inspecting the property and making sure it is properly up kept. However, even if that were the case, it’s not professional to knock on a door and speak to owners. I do not do so because I don’t view knocking on a door and telling a person they need to pay is professional, I need to document what I have done in attempts to collect, doing so could be viewed as harassment by a creditor, whatever would be said would only be hearsay in court, some are renters and even if the unit I occupied by an owner, it would be a waste of the Association’s management resources since my time is limited and, and also, in a scenario where occupants are desperate it could lead to very bad results, even when the issue to be addressed is only a rule infraction. When it relates to money and a family’s finances, as you can imagine it usually gets worse. 
 
Your Question: I have the most corrupt management company and condo lawyer. I truly believe the management company talked a few condo board members into allowing them to replace items that didn't need to be replaced and profit from the job using some left overs the management company had from other jobs. The PM is married to the owner of the management company. I know for a fact the amount the contractor charged for a service and the amount the management company charged us for that service was $17,500 more. This is very difficult to believe but the contractor didn't realize that he was informing us of an amount that the management company was going to inflate or he would not have revealed this to us. Beside inflating the bill for the service, the horrible PM put a different color roof on our condos so they probably got the roofing material free also. The resolution states that when the roof is replaced on any of the buildings, the condo owner has to pay for new skylights or else, according to this new resolution, the contractor will remove the old skylights and cover the skylight holes with roofing material. This job of replacing the skylights in 4 condos where I live is what brought in the extra $17,500 for those crooks involved. 
My Answer: I could understand your concern if it were a vendor related to the property management company. Your Property Management Company is an independent vendor hired by your Board. Who they hire to be the Property Manager is negligible; however, if they are using vendors and entering into contracts with relatives, the PM company owns any portion of a company providing a bid or services other than property management, or vendors offer them any remuneration for accepting the vendors contract, there should be a clause in their contract stating they must disclose that to the Association. When you view this extra 17,500, this can include a contingency for others not paying. So even though the bill from the contractor was 17,500 less, the Property Manager/ Company may be taking into account those not paying and building that into the assessment to assure that the project is paid for. If you wanted to confirm that, send a certified letter requesting all invoices from the vendor for the project. Simple, easy, done. With regard to the color of roofs, what you have to realize is that the PM is acting under direction and is responsible to your Board. If you should be blaming anyone, it is your Board. From what you have stated, what the “resolution” offered to do is give the owner the option to have skylights, but at the expense of the owner. Perhaps what they have found is that skylights are an extra expense, or there is a design defect and they are attempting to eliminate that expense. I would think you would be happy since eliminating the skylights which needed repair are now gone and costing you less in operational costs, while still offering you the opportunity to keep the skylights at your own cost. 
Your Question: The management company we have has terrible feedback so they have done this before to others as it can work if the PM is married to the owner which they keep a secret.  
My Answer: Feedback is relative. Unscrupulous competing management companies have been known to provide negative feedback in forums and on business listing sites just to eliminate their competitors. 
Your Question: Joyce, have you ever hear of a lawyer making up a resolution which allows the board to steal skylights and cover the skylight holes with roofing material? The poor condo owners didn't buy condos with skylight holes covered with roofing material so what the heck kind of lawyer is this that we have. I know he lies but is doing what this resolutions states even legal since the lawyer is such a crook I wouldn't put anything past him if he could profit from it. By the way does it do any good to report a lawyer to the state for lying? Our lawyer lies so much and there are some people who believe lawyers do not lie which is causing me a problem having some not too smart condo owners to realize what is happening here.  
My Answer: The Associations’ lawyer should provide advice and composes resolutions as the board instructs. Even if a lawyer provides advice, and the board decides to go against that advice, they are obligated to their client – the Board. Attorneys are responsible solely to the Board you elected. 

Sylvia: 
 
Perhaps I’m confused, you stated earlier in the forum that your mother paid every month, and how you’re claiming that “for each month she did not pay”, indicating to me she did not pay every month. Additionally, I don’t know what state you live it, but it would not be collectable or lienable in Florida to attach a fee double the maintenance for any month the maintenance was missed. 
 
 
The reason the Association probably reduced what was owed is that they would rather have a sale go through and someone begin to pay again rather than deal with the back and forth, attorneys fees and collection costs if the unit does go into foreclosure. Their attempts at resolution in no way indicate they are guilty of overcharging the unit. 
 
Again, make a written for a ledger or statement for the unit going back to when the problem began. All management companies are required to maintain a ledger and generally adhere to good accounting practices. 
 
Because guess what, if you don't, you're still going to end up paying them. Since you’re going to closing…they get their money regardless of what you state or refuse to do at closing. Whatever monies the Association claims they are owed will automatically be held in escrow at closing…meaning you will not get it. 

The only thing I want is to be rid of this crap. 
 
 
 
The claim was an assessment for the time they claimed that she did not pay. As stated in my first blog, she got a letter in April/2010. The letter said she owes a certain amount. I only got this letter w/out anything saying what the money owed was for. Because she had records of all payments and assessments, we did not pay. Fast forward. When the closing date was here, the management co said there was a lien. The thousands of dollars was added to the months for which she had not paid the original money they asked for. (June 2010-Oct 2011). They were given proof that she paid June-Oct. condo fees but this was an assessment because they had not received the original amount asked for in April.  
 
 
 
Needless to say, the title company asked the assoc/management to come to an agreement so that the condo would not go into foreclosure and everybody loses. The only thing being paid is the attorney's fees and that is not by us. No need to say how. However the condo assoc/management co. gets paid, my mother will not be paying it. 
 
 
 
At this point, we did not expect to get anything. Due to the market, a short sale was the way to go. My mom is 83 and has her own medical dificulties. You and your co. may operate in a good way. but some may not. When we went to get the condo booklet, the management co. added $100. If that was the amount due we would have paid. We were quoted a price and we got a certified check for that amount. We asked for the booklet and they told me they would call when it is ready. (Oct. 25.)No call. When I called 10 days later, still no book. A member of the condo assoc. board called the management co. and told them to get the book ready now. She is the reason we got the book today. Another headache. I don't doubt there are plenty of slackers, but asking for $$ without presenting something other than a condo/mgmt letter is not ok. I agree you guys should go after the non paying accounts, but have your stuff in order whan you do. I said we are not paying and as of Wed. we will be through with all of them. Good luck to those with crummy assoc/mgmt companies. 
 
 
 

I'm sorry, what you are stating does not really make any sense. 
 
With regard to your statement: 
 
"The claim was an assessment for the time they claimed that she did not pay."..... 
 
As stated in my first blog, she got a letter in April/2010. The letter said she owes a certain amount. I only got this letter w/out anything saying what the money owed was for.  
 
Because she had records of all payments and assessments, we did not pay.  
 
Fast forward. When the closing date was here, the management co said there was a lien. The thousands of dollars was added to the months for which she had not paid the original money they asked for. (June 2010-Oct 2011). They were given proof that she paid June-Oct. condo fees but this was an assessment because they had not received the original amount asked for in April.  
 
As I previously stated, a Board / Association, HOA cannot make "an assessment" because your mother didn't pay -- and certainly not double what would have been owed. If she paid what was due there would be nothing due -- even if she paid late, there would be only late fees and interest. Legal fees would normally only be due after filing the lien, recording it and making proper notice. 
 
In your situation, it is really starting to sound like there was an increase in regular fees or there was a special assessment which was not paid, and attorneys fees resulted as a consequence.  

Maybe you don't understand because you do things correctly. Condo fees went up Jan. 2011. Here's the breakdown. Rec'd letter 4/2010. You owe $xxx. I asked what is this payment for. Phone conversation was that she owed it. I asked was it an assessment? NO. Unpaid monthly condo fee? No. Just pay $xxx. Joyce, do you do this? Ask for a payment w/out showing what it is for? Decided not to because the same thing (asking for a payment) could come up months down the road if my mom had paid this one.  
 
 
 
When I rec'd notice about lien, the notice showed attorney's fees, late fees and interest for all of the months we were in dispute. Also showed an assessment which was more than she had paid in regular condo fees. (June 2010-Oct. 2011.). Monthly condo fee $150. June 2010-Oct 2011= 17 months. 150 x 17=2250 paid.. Extra fee for same period was $155 a month. ($2635). No way. All fees except attorney fees (which the assoc/mgmt hired to collect this debt) were waived. Condo assoc and mgmt. could not produce records showing payment due to their attorney. Perhaps poor recordkeeping was the reason. Nothing paid because nothing was owed.  
 
 
 
Hats off to you Joyce for being on top of things. But as I said before, fault can be with owner and or assoc/mgmt. Keep good records that can justify that all payments were made. That is exactly what my mother did and condo assoc. did not. All of this will be behind me in a matter of days. Thank goodness.

Went to closing today. The woman from the title commented that the folks at the management co. as well as their attorney were awful. They told the buyer to keep record of payments, check numbers and dates checks were cashed. She got a fair warning. I'm done. Thank goodness. 
 

A lot of thanks for all your valuable work on this article.